Robyn Jancovich Brown
Robyn Jancovich-Brown is an independent producer and arts project manager based in Scotland, who specialises in participatory, contemporary and community arts projects.
Robyn has worked for the British Council, Edinburgh Festival Fringe Society, Imaginate, National Theatre of Scotland, Starcatchers and Dumfries & Galloway Dance. She also runs Stories Untold, a production company that has set out to explore “how care and access can be prioritised and embedded at every level in the making of work, putting people before project outcomes”.
We interviewed Robyn in February 2024 as we were developing our Performing Anxiety resource.
Over the past few years there has been a rise in the number of people making shows that are explicitly about mental health in a way that we’d perhaps not seen a few years ago. What are your thoughts on this?
I think there’s obviously a lot of trauma processing going on from the last few years, which has probably impacted that spike of work. I think also, though, there’s just more general awareness and openness to talking about mental health. And I feel like we’ve made some kind of fairly decent strides in that area in recent years. And so I think it’s both encouraging to see lots of work being talked about. But yes, there is also a concern about how it’s being talked about, by who, and what support has been put in place for the people processing their trauma through art, and also the people then having to sit and watch it and process it with them. So yeah, it’s a really interesting dynamic for us. We see an awful lot of it. Pretty much every company or artist that comes to us is like, ‘I want to put my trauma on stage.’ ‘Okay, why? Do you really need to?’ So, yeah, it’s just an interesting new model to be dealing with.
In a way you set yourself up for that with the mission statement on Stories Untold’s website: ‘We believe that marginalised voices and subject shouldn’t be relegated to the fringes, we want to take up space for the unseen, talk about the unspoken and amplify the unheard.’ Could you talk about the thinking behind that?
It started from a very kind of personal place where there were certain topics, mental health included, and I just felt I wasn’t seeing myself represented in the performing arts at all, or not represented in the way that felt relevant to someone who had experienced certain things. I’m a big believer that talking is great therapy. And I think representation really, really matters when it comes to media, entertainment arts, in your workplace, whatever it is. And so I just really wanted to help people feel a little bit more seen and heard in their own spaces and contexts.
We like to say we take a kind of trauma-based approach to all of the work that we make; underrepresented artists are people who probably are carrying a lot of trauma from their past, and therefore that has to be considered in the producing process. It’s a bit of a double edged sword, sometimes. We open ourselves up to quite a lot of abuse through that as well, which is quite a delicate line to balance. How do you make sure that you’re properly taking care of your artists but also making sure that you’re taking care of yourself and the other people who work on projects with us?
Abuse? In what sense?
There have been times where our approaches have been used against us. And it’s been basically said that we’re not really inclusive because we’re not representative of the artists that we’re working with. You know, I’m a white, straight passing woman. So somebody could be like, ‘well, you’re not queer enough to put on my production’ or that we’re a ‘powerhouse’, which we’re not, we’re two people running this company. But I think that perception of being a company makes it look like we have more power than we actually do in the industry. And obviously power dynamics, trauma, all of that stuff can be very, very triggering. And we will go through every step that we can to make sure that no one ever is triggered, but if something is triggered, accidentally or for whatever reason, then generally producers will feel a lot of that aggression, and a lot of that blame does get placed back on our shoulders. But having said that, that’s all happened a tiny amount of times compared to the work that we have managed to get out there in a really considered and safe way. So I think every job comes with a risk of that kind of thing.
Can you talk about some of the processes you have in place when working with artists?
I think we take the approach that care and wellbeing should be baked into every single aspect of project management or relationship building. So the very first step is building trust with an artist, making sure that we have lots of conversations before starting to work together, we know exactly where the boundaries are for each person, they understand the way that we work, we understand the way that they work, and that there’s a synergy there between us. And that trust is really crucial because if the artist doesn’t trust us to hold them and hold their work, then everything just kind of falls apart from there.
We then make sure that we work to build proper timelines. We don’t rush projects ever really, we will make sure that there is lots of contingency time baked into everything that we’re doing and that working hours for rehearsal weeks, production, all of that stuff remains safe for whatever the project is, whatever that means to whatever artist we’re working with, or whatever project we’re on.
It might be that that is a three day rehearsal week or performance week, it might be that it’s split up over six months, rather than condensed into a six week period. All of this sounds like really admin stuff. But if these things start to build up, we just recognise that it increases stress and anxiety for lots of people that we’re working with. So (we’re) really making sure that what we’re paying people is a higher rate, to make sure that people can actually live and work in this industry in a non-stressful way. Contracting – just making sure that that happens way in advance, we’re not contracting people a month before the project.
And then, of course, we work with wellbeing facilitators on all of our projects. And I think it’s important to do that on projects about mental health, but we actually do it on every single one of our projects because regardless of what the project’s about, making art is really personal. And we just want everyone to make sure that they understand who they’re working with, where everyone is coming from, in terms of their experience, or whatever, on every project. So we work with the Artist Wellbeing Company, who are all trained drama therapists who also practice well-being. We might hire them to do some script reading ahead of an R&D (research and development) or performance. And typically, we would bring them in at the start of a project to do a group session with everyone who’s involved.
It really just breaks down the barriers and allows everyone to get to know each other a little bit quicker. And you kind of put it all out there. You say, ‘this is what I’m anxious about, this is where I’m coming from.’
We find it just skips a good couple of days of that getting to know each other process that happens at the start of a project. They then will come back at the end of the project to help us do a kind of debrief and close down. But then throughout the project, they’re also available for one to one sessions with the members of the team, and that lasts for up to four weeks post-project as well, sometimes longer depending on what the subject is.
We’ve had real successes with running those. However, there is a certain amount of anxiety that actually telling people in your project you’re going to be taking part in a well-being session actually creates, and we’ve had some people choose not to be part of them, or express a real kind of anxiety about being part of them. So I think we need to have a think about how we frame those, and how we actually label them in terms of our projects going forward. Because obviously, the idea is not to create stress, they’re supposed to take it away.
But on projects that we didn’t think had any kind of trauma attached to them, we found that actually sometimes people have taken up those optional one to ones, because something else on the outside has impacted whatever’s going on in the room, and they’ve just needed someone outside of the team to speak to. And I think it does a really good thing for those power dynamics as well. It means that they’re not having to come to me or Kirsten (McPake, producer), who are technically their employers who are paying them, or the director or the writer, whoever’s in the room, and kind of offer themselves up as being quite vulnerable. They’re able to take that and give that to someone else for them to hold.
And then, you know, obviously, if there’s an issue that needs mediated, that will come back to us, and we can address it. But it also means that we’re not having to hold people’s emotions quite as much, which is great wellbeing for us and makes sure that it’s a sustainable way for us to work a little bit more.
I’d heard about this increasing use of well-being practitioners but I hadn’t come across a company that uses them in every project, just as standard practice. Are you aware of other people who do that?
No, I’m not sure I’ve come across that before. Again, because of the artists that we’re working with, there could be generational trauma attached. So it feels appropriate for us to be doing it. I think if ever there was a project where it came up, and we actually felt like it doesn’t feel right, then we would address that. But you know, we did an early years piece about boxes coming to life earlier last year. We did it with that, and it worked great.
That’s interesting. What were the benefits with that particular project?
I mean, I think there was some stress that happened during the project, because COVID came into play and took a number of the team out, which then had a knock on effect for other parts of the timeline and the production process, which meant that the actors weren’t rehearsing with the full set. And so tensions were steadily creeping up between that first case of COVID, right through. And I think just having someone on the outside allowed that team to vent their frustrations outside of the room and kept the team together. Because I think there was, at one point, a real risk that the project could fall apart because all the parts weren’t quite lining up. I think having that additional support on hand for the team just really allowed everyone to keep their thinking as clear as they possibly could. Which then allowed us to properly find solutions and problem solve without that emotion kind of interfering.
Are you finding that that artists are gravitating towards you as a company because they’re not finding that level of care being offered elsewhere?
It’s hard to answer that. A lot of the a lot of the artists that we work with are (finding us by) word of mouth. They’ve heard of us from someone else. We get very few cold call emails. And to date, we’ve not really had to go out and search for artists to work with at all, everyone’s kind of come to us. So potentially that could be one reason. I also think there is just an absolute lack of independent producers in the industry at the moment, especially in Scotland.
You’ve worked across many parts of the arts industry. Do you feel like the kinds of care focused approach you’re taking is being reflected across the wider industry? Are we getting better at this?
There’s definitely been an increase in it. I think care is definitely something that people are talking about a lot. Whether it’s fully being implemented everywhere that it’s being talked about, I’m not sure that’s necessarily the case. I think there’s a lot of lip service being taken to it. I think there’s many factors that contribute to this, obviously, because it’s a really delicate and complicated ecosystem, the performing arts world, but I think there’s still a lack of companies who actually at the end of the day are willing to put their money where their mouth is and, you know, cancel a project if things aren’t going to plan. Whereas that is our number one thing, we will always put the people that are involved in the project before the outcome of the project. So if the people aren’t having a good time, if it’s an awful experience, we just won’t continue with it. The safety of everyone, in terms of their physical safety, their emotional safety, their mental health, is the primary focus of what we do. And I don’t think that mindset has quite caught on. I think there’s a lot of ‘we’ll implement this so that we can continue or that we can be seen to be looking after people.’ Whereas if push was to come to shove, I’m not sure.
To play devil’s advocate for a moment, one obvious issue with this kind of approach is it can get quite expensive. That must be a challenge, particularly in the current industry climate.
Definitely. I would say, for us doing a simple R&D probably, you can’t bring that in under £15k based on this approach, whereas, you know, there are a lot of artists or a lot of companies which would bring that in much, much cheaper than what we would. But I think what we bring, even though it’s more expensive, is hopefully a sustainability. It means that people keep working in the arts, keep contributing, and hopefully are a bit more robust and can advocate for themselves. I think that’s one of the key things we’ve seen come out of some of the projects, that people who aren’t used to being looked after in the way that we look after people are now demanding that of the other companies that they work with. And so I think the more people can start doing that, the safer (it will be), and the expectations for cost as well can start to grow.
We’re seeing this in the way that funders are taking things like fair work on board. Is that your experience? Do you feel like funders get what you’re trying to do?
Yeah, I think they do. I think they get the approach and they get the importance of that approach. And I’m not sure if they fully get…. this is such an odd thing to say because it’s all anyone ever talks about but the importance of representation and the stories that need to be seen and heard. I’m not sure that is quite there yet. You know, some of the work that we do is going to be riskier because of the artists that we’re working with. And I think there’s still a lack of ability, or just general want, to support that kind of work.
I’m thinking about the (Creative Scotland) multi-year funding round. There was an awful lot of talk of fair working practices and policies. But then we were being asked to put in a huge amount of work for absolutely no pay to generate these applications. And it’s the same with the Touring Fund, it’s the same with pretty much any application you write, you are writing it for free. And actually Creative Scotland reached out to me and several other independent producers to have conversations about what that looked like for us at the moment. And as part of that chat, I actually tallied up my hours and four months out of every year is unpaid funding bid writing. I don’t know what the solution to that is, though, to be honest. There is a limited amount of funds, there’s huge amount of competition. But yeah, I think the lip service being paid to fair working practices doesn’t always follow through into the processes that are being rolled out.
I’ve also spoken to Stephanie Katie Hunter at Scissor Kick, who said they include an access rider with the contract for everyone they work with, which as far as I know is not standard practice across the industry. Is this something you do?
Yeah, we do something similar. We have an access rider, and so people can tell us about not only their physical access needs but any ways of working – if they prefer digital working, if they need quiet spaces, quiet time, all of that kind of thing. It basically sets out how they like to work, or what they need in order to work the best. And then, as much as reasonably possible, we will always try and work with those needs. We also have a company handbook that gets sent out to every new employee, whether they’re freelance or whatever. And that lays out the way that the company works, our missions or objectives, what we expect from the people that we work with, how we personally, Kirsten and I, prefer to work, payment timelines, so that everyone feels onboarded in a really considered way. And then that links to our policies and guidance on bullying, harassment, safeguarding, all of that kind of stuff. So they’ve got all the information at their fingertips.
In terms of our recruitment, it’s also being really aware about the timelines for that kind of stuff, not putting jobs out with only a week’s notice and making sure that it’s at least four weeks. Making sure that we’re super clear about the wage, the location, the expectation, in terms of days, or how you want to work, as well as the description. I think that all feeds into people knowing what they’re jumping on board with, and making them feel a bit safer in that.
Something else that has come up a couple of times is aftercare, as something that’s not talked about as much as it should be – that you go through this very intense time of working together on a project and then suddenly it’s over. What are your thoughts on that?
As I mentioned, we keep our wellbeing one to ones open for at least a month after the project has ended, so that if anyone that has any delayed reactions, or anything they want to talk about, that can happen. And I actually find this the hardest part of the entire project, just because of the way that we’re having to work at the moment, which is so constant and really heavy. As soon as one thing is done you do quickly move on to the next. But I think we always like to do a follow up to just say thank you, make sure everyone feels happy with the way they took part, the way they were treated, all of that kind of stuff. We do a debrief at the end of the project. Sometimes that will happen immediately, sometimes that will be delayed. It really just depends on what the project team want at that point in time. And we’ll do a group debrief, but also some one to ones so that people can say stuff they feel might not be relevant, or they might not be comfortable saying in front of other people. I personally would love it if we were able to do something that was a bit more robust, that allowed us to stay in touch for a bit longer, and in more of a meaningful way. But we have to figure out the sustainability of the company to implement that.
How do you manage your own mental health? What do you have in place for that?
This is actually a really interesting conversation that Kirsten (McPake) and I have been having, because I think we both got to the end of last year (2023) and we were incredibly burnt out, very stressed, very run down. And I think we really need to focus this year on basically getting through the year and not being like that again. That’s our big focus – how do we keep this company going without killing ourselves? I have a long history with my mental health, I know the things that keep me on top, which are lots of exercise, good diet, not working too much, making sure I really put boundaries in place with the times that people can contact me and when they can’t contact me and all of that kind of stuff. I’m not always very good at it. But I try. There’s also a conversation we’ve been having about really wanting that wellbeing support not just to be from project to project, but almost having a sort of retainer relationship with a company whereby we can access that support in the times where projects are ongoing, or just feel like we can access it, because often we don’t want to take that away from the artists who are deep in the project.
So yeah, there’s a bit more thinking about how we do that. How we find the resource to do that, to be honest. And how we can spread our projects out a bit more. I mean, last year was a bit of an exceptional year, we jumped from four or five projects in 2022 to 11 last year (2023) so we maybe took on a bit too much. So figuring out that balance is going to be really, really important for us this year and moving forward with this.
It’s the constant challenge for freelancers and anybody who sets their own hours, isn’t it?
Yeah. Also last year, Kirsten was effectively working full time for the company but I was still just doing two – well supposedly – days a week, and then also some freelance stuff outside of the company. And I think I realised last year that that just isn’t doable anymore. The company’s got to a size now that it needs full time focus. So yeah, I’m going to try putting all of that in this year and see if that helps.
We’ve talked about the mental health of the people you work with, and your own mental health mean. Something else that comes up is audiences, and what responsibility people making this work have to audiences when you’re creating work that can be quite triggering. What thoughts do you have on that?
I think it’s the same approach that we take with people we’re working with. Information is absolutely key. If people know what they are getting involved in, what they’re coming to see, if their expectations can be managed, if information about how they can engage with something, or what they might expect, can be laid out before they come to experience it then often they don’t need those things.
One thing I should say about working with artists as well on projects is that often putting all of this stuff in place means that people don’t need to use it because they know it’s there. So, it’s often not really taken up, which is great, saves us a bit of money, but also it’s great that people feel that they’re being looked after in that way. So in terms of audiences, making sure that the information about the show is super clear, written in plain English as well, that guidelines around age expectancy, all your trigger warnings, all of that kind of stuff, is super upfront, so you can actually have a conversation with someone at the door to say ‘this is what’s going to happen’ or send it to them in advance. Basically it’s just about saying ‘this is what this performance is, this is what you can expect if you come and take part in it. And this is how you will be treated as part of the performance.’ Then that takes a lot of the fear or anxiety away from coming to take part in something, especially if it’s something about quite a difficult or traumatic subject matter.
What’s your own experience with venues? I hear mixed reports – producers sending trigger warnings and all this information to venues and it really not being passed on to audiences.
I think it really depends on the venue – Tramway are fantastic, and we’ve had some really good experiences with them. Just making sure that access information, trigger information, all of that is on websites, is up front, is really clear and in the building as well. And there are other venues where you say ‘I want to list this on the website’, and they’re like, ‘our template doesn’t allow for that.’ And you’re like, well, it’s kind of the ethos of the show. So can we figure something out? Yeah, it’s really dependent on who’s running that venue and how it’s being run?
What would you say to venues who want to programme the kind of work you support?
Make time for proper conversations with the producers and artists. Often, you know, you have your initial conversation where they state interest and then you go straight into chats about dates, times, practicalities, and actually that continued conversation is really needed, and it’s really appreciated when it happens as well because it just makes the experience of going into a venue so much nicer, because you feel like that venue knows exactly who and what is coming into it rather than walking in and (them) being like, ‘what’s that one about?’
Taking time to build relationships is such an easy thing to do. I know everyone’s really busy, so it actually becomes really difficult, but it’s such a simple thing to implement. Even just bi-monthly catch ups from the point of booking that then increase the closer you get to the date, something like that would be incredibly useful, and save so much time in the back and forth on emails. So yeah, just take the time to properly chat and get to know what’s coming in.
What barriers do you think exist in the arts world to artists living with mental health issues? And how can these be overcome?
Money obviously, always upfront. Not just from a kind of pay perspective, but for bringing in all of these resources that actually make sure that people can be cared for and looked after properly. I think the structure and the way that the arts traditionally runs works against people as well. So a bit more openness to different approaches on how to make work and how to stage work is really needed. And I think there is headway being made in that area. But there’s still quite a way to go. And I think while there’s a lot of kind of acknowledgment of why it’s important, actually a bit of commitment behind that as well is maybe lacking a little bit.
Venues might want to stage this type of work, but if they do want to stage it, they have to engage with it in a really meaningful way. Which does mean taking more time with the company to really work through it, all those types of points that we just talked about. So yeah, not just paying lip service to it actually fully committing to it in a really meaningful way.
Finally, what would you say to someone who wants to make a piece of work about their mental health?
I think the first question is always why. Why do you want to make it? Do you really need to make it? Does it have wider implications? Or, you know, things around representation? What’s the purpose of it? What do you really, really want it to do? And I think those questions can quite quickly figure out whether someone’s just trying to process their own trauma or whether there is something that’s really interesting, creatively, to kind of stage and explore. I think you’ve got to be really, really careful about how you’re doing it. And I think if you want to make something about mental health, then you have to put the thought behind how to do that properly. Otherwise it’s a really dangerous thing to do, quite frankly.
Performing Anxiety
A resource for people who want to make audience-facing or participatory arts projects about mental health.
